InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Break the law, disobey gravity"

janecarnall (janecarnall) wrote,
@ 2009-06-23 22:07:00

Current mood:	indescribable
Entry tags:	meta, my fanfic, on writing, warnings

Without doubt I am going to go to hell
I read this.

And it made me think two things:

1. I do get the point of having "If you want to read it, there's a warning associated with this story". Except I also agree much more strongly with this (from livejournal, three years ago) and this from fanfic symposium: warnings are not obligatory.

2. But given that, as she outlined very clearly, a trigger may be something as unexpected as calculus - ought we all then to warn for every event in the story, since any event may be triggering?

I don't want to cause anyone unwanted distress.

But if you read my stories, you should know that I want to harrow up your emotions like a fork in butter frosting: to make you cry, make you laugh, turn you on, startle you like a thin knife that pierces your heart before you know your skin is broken, suck you in as if I were a black hole and you were my light, make you shake, make you shiver, melt your brain, make you keep coming back -

...if you want me to do that to you.

If you don't, you shouldn't read my stories.

(Post a new comment)

whatho
2009-06-23 04:40 pm UTC (link)

I've a tendency when I write fic, which admittedly seems a long time ago now, not to give anything much away in the preamble at all. I sort of think ... well, novels don't, and plays don't, and films only do to an extent. I'm sure if I wrote anything I suspected would be commonly triggery I'd warn for that 'cause certainly I don't want to upset people when there are easy ways not to, but yes. I don't know what might or might not be triggery, and my preference is to go 'Here's a story with these people in' and that's about it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

janecarnall
2009-06-23 05:11 pm UTC (link)

I've a tendency when I write fic, which admittedly seems a long time ago now, not to give anything much away in the preamble at all. I sort of think ... well, novels don't, and plays don't, and films only do to an extent.

TV series do most of all: you know if it's before the watershed there are things you will not see, and no matter how hard you try to avoid spoilers you generally know if a major character is going to die because casting spoilers are the hardest of all to avoid. And films the same.

Plays don't. Novels don't. I don't want to. It's like being supposed to use a film board's censor warnings for fanfic.

I don't know what might or might not be triggery, and my preference is to go 'Here's a story with these people in' and that's about it.

Yes.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

whatho
2009-06-23 05:27 pm UTC (link)

I read the first post you'd linked to after I commented, rather dimly, and it did make me reel a bit, because I don't actually think my desire to pull off a narrative effect trumps a reader's need not to be further traumatised. I guess it's not been massively difficult for me thus far because I've never written, in fic, anything commonly triggery and if I did, as I say, I think I would warn - but ... I have written triggery things in plays, and I've thought about it quite a lot. There's no system for warning in plays beyond reviews, and I wonder if an expanded review system with quite generalised warnings wouldn't be a better compromise for fic - but impossible, I guess, to sustain. I don't know. I do get the argument about fic's having a different audience to mainstream media and it doesn't hurt me to post warnings. Uncommon triggers though, I don't think anyone can be expected to legislate for. A warning for everything would simply be posting the entire story without a cut. And there stories that, if you were to warn for character death, you may as well not write the story. Basically I think it's a courtesy but not an obligation.

(And I've never done age specifications. I think those are pretty arbitrary and baffling to apply.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

janecarnall
2009-06-23 06:07 pm UTC (link)

because I don't actually think my desire to pull off a narrative effect trumps a reader's need not to be further traumatised.

I thought that too. But then I thought: why does one have to trump the other? If you know you are liable to get triggery reactions from reading something traumatic, you should not be reading my stories, because they are as hazardous to the health as peanuts are to someone with a nut allergy. As the fan says in the second link: fandom is bake sale, not supermarket.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

whatho
2009-06-24 02:09 am UTC (link)

Yes, fair enough. Certainly getting a sense of a writer's style and usual themes is advisable, and you can do that by asking around. I think research is a lot more sensible. As writers can't know what will and won't affect people, common themes aside, surely it makes more sense from everyone's point of view for the onus of the reader's comfort to be on the reader.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

janecarnall
2009-06-24 03:12 am UTC (link)

Over on dreamwidth (I think) the author of the first piece was arguing with one of the anti-warning fans about how one in four women have been sexually assaulted and so need trigger warnings for stories about rape or other non-consensual sex.

But I am one of her "one in four" - though nothing as terrible as what happened to her happened to me - and I hate being "warned" for most plot twists. There are things I do not care to read and wish I hadn't read, but not enough to want warnings on them, because in general I want to get to read a story for the first time.

And I think - if you know you are in the state of mind where reading something upsetting will really knock you off balance - this is a state of mind for re-reading. Stories I already know I like. No warning necessary because I already know what happened.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

whatho
2009-06-24 03:51 am UTC (link)

There are things I don't want to encounter, especially in film (oddly I seem to lack most issues in prose), and I've largely managed to avoid such things, which suggests there is a level of summarisation I find useful. I wouldn't, for example, want to see animal abuse or graphic violence or vomiting, say, and generally I can read reviews or take heed of BBFC warnings or just ask people (which, online, includes the author of the piece) about the content. Sometimes that's gone wrong and I've very much felt I wished I hadn't seen/read whatever it was, but I can't say I ever felt it was the business of the author to keep me away. Most authors give nothing away pre-publication and it's the reviewers you have to depend on. Basically I sort of take it as a racing incident. If you read or watch or listen, one day it'll happen.

But ... I do think there are things it's far easier for a writer to say than they are for a reader to hear and it's easy for me to be blase. While I think a reader would be running a risk to assume all authors are going to protect, I've no objection to being courteous in a medium where that's facilitated. I gather quite a lot of this discussion (I'm reading through a lot of it now) centres on the question of what to do if someone comments on your fic and points out that something in it is triggery, not as a judgement or anything but as info. I think that counts as the reader's taking care of her own state of mind and I don't want to hurt people, so I guess I'd take it into account. As I say, I've never encountered many of these issues: my readership's always been very small and I don't particularly consider anyone beyond it because I assume they're not reading. While I'd follow community procedure, I don't summarise in my LJ. I think I've gone as far as 'quite dark' in the knowledge that people can ask me for further info or give it a miss (I think it's important to bear in mind that 'giving it a miss' is always a valid option and that no-one's being forced to read anything). As it is, I know that there are people on my flist for whom self-harm is an issue and as such I'd warn for it, and if someone commented that a certain uncommon image or what have you had had a certain effect on them I'd bear them in mind in the future.

It's deathfic that really stalls me though. By and large that's a heck of a plot point to reveal at the very beginning and a lot of the time you may as well not write the story. I guess, again, fic differs from other media because your characters have a fanbase already in place and a lot of that base will be happy to read a fic they've been completely spoiled for because one major purpose of fic-reading is to see that character in action regardless of whether or not you know what's coming plot-wise - it depends what my goal is, but I occasionally read fanfic in a non-linear way if plot isn't my foremost concern. But even so I can't quite shake the thought of what it'd do to my narrative. I guess it's pretty privileged of me to be able to think 'I don't want to warn for it because it hurts my story' when the other side of the argument might want me to warn for it because it hurts them personally ... but most fiction isn't going to be courteous and I can't help feeling that this is the risk if you're going to read. There's research, reviews, further questioning, choosing not to read. I really think there are better ways for readers, writers and narratives than relying on a warning system that may or may not cover you specific needs.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

whatho
2009-06-24 03:59 am UTC (link)

(I was going to clarify that I would always warn for self-harm regardless of who I thought was reading it because I don't want to trigger further self-harm in anyone. Then it occurred to me that I'd written about self-harm in a non-fic albeit unpublished way but for which there isn't any opportunity to warn potential readers. I think that really highlights the necessity of relying on something other than warnings.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

janecarnall
2009-06-24 04:28 am UTC (link)

I wrote about a character self-harming: I did not warn for it: I sent it off to a friend who I knew had self-harmed (though I wasn't thinking about that when I sent it to her - she'd been reading the fic piece by piece as I wrote it, and I certainly wasn't going to stop now) and her reaction was, summarised: "Wow, yes, that's exactly what it feels like."

I appreciate that sometimes, some people, for some things, reading prose about something very upsetting is going to cause extreme emotional upset. But the dividing line isn't going to be between "People who have experienced that in RL" and "People who have not" (which is what this person was arguing on DW): it's something else.

(I had the TV on recently and there was a scene which, I suddenly realised, was probably going to end in some messy painful physical damage with which I would be unable to cope, and I leapt up and switched it off. Yet I could probably have read it without difficulty. I think. But even the tense buildup was something I didn't want to see.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

whatho
2009-06-24 04:57 am UTC (link)

But the dividing line isn't going to be between "People who have experienced that in RL" and "People who have not" (which is what this person was arguing on DW): it's something else.

Yes, agreed. It's way too complicated to pin down. I don't know enough about it, stuff, the world in general, but I've sort of been assuming that the majority of people have triggers of some description - hopefully not, the majority of the time, connected to traumatic events, but present nonetheless. I kind of think reading/viewing with an awareness of the risks is relevant for everyone. It's how I choose to operate anyway.

Currently in the discussion I'm reading the responses to the [para]phrase 'acting that way puts you in danger ergo don't do it' ain't a great thing to say to an abuse survivor, which, yes. As I say, I would warn for most dark themes that people expect to be warned for in this medium, and I suppose the different expectations in different media do come into play. And yet I still think it's safer for every single reader to read awarely - I don't think awarely is a word - but I really don't want that to sound judgemental. I don't know. Reading has risks. Currently I'm glad I'm largely into comedy fandoms. This is all quite outside my fic-writing experience. Not my other writing though, and I am very interested in questions about writing and responsibility ... how abuse and writing abuse relate to one another.

Yet I could probably have read it without difficulty. I think. But even the tense buildup was something I didn't want to see.

It's interesting. I can read about things I'd never dream of watching as well. Not entirely sure why, but I expect it's because if I'm reading I controlling the way I see and hear the imagery - there's much less of a sense of its being overwhelmingly forced on me as it would if I were in a cinema.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

ruthi
2009-06-23 05:25 pm UTC (link)

I am amused: the paragraph that starts 'But if you read my stories, you should know'
feels similar to what an other friend of mine who writes fanfic wrote about this topic. Knowing a writer and knowing what one can expect of her is good.

(the other writer, she does not like to warn, but uses 'I don't warn' warnings and 'Wrong for everybody' labels.)

I tend to just read stories online by friends, or stories recommended by friends. When it is my friends recommending stuff, I can ask them, and they know me so they could, in principle, tell me if there are things there that'd be upsetting to me.

<mean and petty>...On the fifth arm, nobody warned for racist stereotypes when they recommended Heyer or when they recommended Bear. And those are unpleasant to encounter. </mean and petty>

(Reply to this) (Thread)

janecarnall
2009-06-23 06:10 pm UTC (link)

I tend to just read stories online by friends, or stories recommended by friends. When it is my friends recommending stuff, I can ask them, and they know me so they could, in principle, tell me if there are things there that'd be upsetting to me.

And can always ask? I mean. If I post a M*A*S*H story and it might be something fluffy with apples or something dark and horrible where BJ has a beard, you could ask.

On the fifth arm, nobody warned for racist stereotypes when they recommended Heyer or when they recommended Bear. And those are unpleasant to encounter.

Oh, well, I think Bear should come with a "this author is stultifying to the brain" warning. But yes: I would hope I would remember to do "warning for anti-Semitism" when rec'ing Heyer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

duskpeterson
2009-06-26 07:52 pm UTC (link)

I can't remember what your IJ profile looked like before, but you give quite blunt warnings at your Website. So I don't think you're the sort of author that Impertinence was talking about.

I think that the use of warnings depends on context. When I open a book at a bookstore (the example that K.S. Langley uses), I don't expect warnings because bookstore literature is usually pre-censored. In the few cases where it isn't (where can I find that "Christians for BDSM and Water Sports" book, pray tell?), the publisher generally plasters warnings all over the book, either through blurbs (I agree with K. S. Langley that this is the best way to warn readers) or by a notice that the book is adults-only (which is publisher-ese for saying, "Triggery stuff ahead!"). So I'm afraid that the "bookstore versus fandom" analogy doesn't work for me, because fandom is inclined to post stories with very touchy content that is unpublishable.

I'd really like to know how the warnings tradition developed in the fan fiction community. When I did a survey of readers many years ago, I found that 50% of them read warnings to find out if the story has something they'd like to read. And that is exactly how the erotica community uses story codes. I think this issue would be regarded a lot less negatively if fandom hadn't chosen to use the word "warnings" to describe its form of story codes.

I decided early on that (1) I wouldn't spoiler readers, and (2) there are ways to give warnings to readers who need them that don't involve spoilering. For the most part, I use this warning. It covers the triggery scenarios in most of my stories without giving away whether any of those activities will actually occur (because in far too many of my stories, the lack of a character-death warning would be a sure-fire indicator that the death-endangered character would live). I think that a boilerplate warning like this (which I link to whenever I post a fic at community blogs), or like the ones you use at your Website and in your current profile, is all that most readers need.

By the way, you'll notice that I warn for love and respect. I really do think that positively wording one's description of the type of stories one writes (as you do above) is the best way to approach such matters.

So I end up taking the middle road on this. If an author doesn't want to give warnings, I'll defend to death their right to not do so. But it seems to me that the amount of energy that some writers spend in saying, "It's against my rights as an author to create warnings!" could be better put to use in creating a one-paragraph, spoiler-free, boilerplate warning . . . or simply saying, "No warnings given," which will alert the reader to the fact that the author doesn't give warnings.

(I'm not referring to you, by the way. Yours is an interesting meta-post.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

janecarnall
2009-06-27 01:26 am UTC (link)

I can't remember what your IJ profile looked like before, but you give quite blunt warnings at your Website. So I don't think you're the sort of author that Impertinence was talking about.

I have no idea. I suspect not: most people who are pro-warning have a list of warnings attached to specific stories. I've contemplated - a major revision of my website is well overdue - adding a link to a page that just says "Hey, this is the only warning you'll get" (as above) but that won't stop the people I see angrily berating others for specific warnings for specific things they say are traumatic.

In my experience - and I thought Impertinence described this quite well - what's likely to be emotionally triggering is nothing near as simple as graphic rape or sexual violence. I spent half an hour in tears once because I had read a passage (in a book) about a girl sitting in a tree. Impertinence describes how calculus was triggery for her.

I resent the people - and Impertinence is included in this - who are berating other writers and fans that obviously nothing really awful can have happened to them because they don't do warnings.

I'd really like to know how the warnings tradition developed in the fan fiction community.

My initial and consistent experience of "warnings" was that they existed so that the editor (or the author) could say to someone who was pissy that in the story they'd just read, two guys had sex (it didn't have to be a graphic scene, either - one of the earliest warning-kerfuffles I'm aware of came about because Kirk and Spock were seen by a OFC in the same sleeping bag, and in passing she concludes "oh yes, that explains it" and moved on with the plot) they could say "Hey, you should have read the warnings! It said slash!"

If you really are triggered by certain things, IME of what that's like, it isn't possible for a warnings list to work. It just isn't. Like I said. Girl in tree. Calculus. What's going to cause upset is not nearly as simplistic as a list of items at the head of a story.

There are two main uses for warnings - no, three, because as you say, some people use them for what they want to read: one is the safeguard for the publisher of the story against readers' complaints, and that's why I have a warnings page at my website: the other is (for sensible people) that if they know they just want to read fluffy-bunny fic where good things happen to nice people and everyone's heterosexual and no one gets branded or tortured or anything mean happens, they should go somewhere else.

I do not warn for emotional triggers because at a rough count there are 6.7 billion separate and unique sets of emotional triggers in the world. I don't know how many of them read English.

(I'm not referring to you, by the way. Yours is an interesting meta-post.)

*g* Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

duskpeterson
2009-06-27 02:20 am UTC (link)

"I resent the people - and Impertinence is included in this - who are berating other writers and fans that obviously nothing really awful can have happened to them because they don't do warnings."

Yes, that's quite a leap to make. It's like saying that obviously no one who writes chan could have been sexually abused as a child.

"they could say 'Hey, you should have read the warnings! It said slash!'"

So het didn't have warnings in the old days? (Personally, I've had to add warnings to my gen stories.)

"If you really are triggered by certain things, IME of what that's like, it isn't possible for a warnings list to work. It just isn't. Like I said. Girl in tree. Calculus."

Hmm, yes, but there are certain sorts of subjects that are more likely to trigger than others, don't you think? I haven't heard anyone in the slash community calling for calculus warnings. Rape, chan, major character death, kink . . . Those are pretty standard warnings, and can be easily covered through a boilerplate warning.

One of the first slash panels I went to was about chan, and every person there who didn't read chan (1) supported the right of chanslashers to write chan and (2) asked for some sort of alert that the stories contained chan.

That panel made a big impact on me. It told me that the people who want warnings often aren't our enemies. These are the people who will be fighting to protect our rights.

Of course, there are the other, nit-picky types who say, "You didn't warn for purple hair!" But I don't think they constitute the majority of readers who prefer warnings; they're just the loudmouths of the bunch. I mean wankers do tend to speak up more, right?

"There are two main uses for warnings"

Here's a third one: young kids. I have G- and PG-rated stories on the same Website as my NC-17 stories. Providing guidance to parents or anyone who controls their own reading matter is important to me.

I have sensitive content in many of my stories, and in seven years I've only received one complaint about my site. (Not directly, and the complaint was posted at a muckraker site that was just begging to find dirt at my site.) I can't be sure that this silence is due to my warnings system, but I think it might have played a role.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

whatho
2009-06-27 04:50 am UTC (link)

Do you think (sorry to butt in) that warning for expected triggers only - not that there's a total consensus on what they are - slightly marginalises the less common triggers, or is just plain risky in that it could create a false sense of security - equating 'lacks the big three' with 'no need for caution'? I know it's mostly about saving time and covering the most common bases, and it's what I've decided to do for the time being (though it's not much of an issue as I don't tend to write those common triggers) but I'd personally rather people got in touch with me to ask me about how my work fits in with their specific needs, more for the sake of their own comfort than anything. I do think fostering an atmosphere in fandom of openly questioning and willingly answering is maybe more useful than relying on a standard list of ticky boxes that isn't actually that likely to take your individual needs on board.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

duskpeterson
2009-07-06 01:00 am UTC (link)

"I'd personally rather people got in touch with me to ask me about how my work fits in with their specific needs, more for the sake of their own comfort than anything. I do think fostering an atmosphere in fandom of openly questioning and willingly answering is maybe more useful than relying on a standard list of ticky boxes that isn't actually that likely to take your individual needs on board."

I totally agree that this would be best. In fact, my boilerplate summary of what "touchy" subjects I cover was partly based on reader feedback - readers saying to me, "Whoa, this aspect of the story was really difficult to get through." After a while, it became apparent that certain types of topics I write about often - abuse, for example, or voluntary submission - were the sorts of topics that a fair number of readers would have liked fair warning of beforehand. This doesn't necessarily mean that those readers wouldn't read the stories - just that they'd like an alert that they might encounter such topics in my fiction, because they needed time to prepare themselves mentally.

So I don't think "writing to authors" and "boilerplate warnings" are incompatible. But the most helpful thing would be for authors to make their contact information readily available. As several of the pro-warning readers pointed out, it can often be difficult to track down an author to ask them about the content of their stories.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-06-27 02:14 pm UTC (link)

I guess I pretty much think that if I'm checking out free, self-published fiction on the internet, I have to be prepared to get what I pay for. But then, I'm an adult with squicks but no triggers, so I'm in the fortunate position of being able to look after myself. I do self-censor: it's a nasty world out there, and some times it's easier not to have the details of that in my head. So I appreciate warnings, but wouldn't blame anyone for not including them: the publishing medium itself is sufficient warning.

I make an exception for authors who start stories and don't finish them. Ninth circle of Hell, I'm afraid.

fae_lie

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	janecarnall 2009-06-28 02:43 am UTC (link)
	I make an exception for authors who start stories and don't finish them. Ninth circle of Hell, I'm afraid. writes harder (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2009-07-12 05:45 am UTC (link)
	"the publishing medium itself is sufficient warning." Yes. That. Thank you for articulating my exact thoughts so neatly... (Reply to this) (Parent)